Trying New Wine Varietals “- What do non-ABCC’s Do? (Anything but Cab and Chardonnay) Are you in a wine rut? - Join our panel discussion. Taking your questions.
Trying New Wine Varietals “- What do non-ABCC’s Do? (Anything but Cab and Chardonnay) Are you in a wine rut? - Join our panel discussion. Taking your questions.
Join us on Wine Wanderings for a semi-controversial wine topic.
Watch for my first LIVE “Thread” Thursday, January 21 –
“Trying New Wine Varietals “- What do non-ABCC’s Do? (Anything but Cab and Chardonnay) Are you in a wine rut?
When: Thursday Jan 21. 9-4 PM CT
How: Go to Wine Wanderings with a free or paid subscription and join the conversation.
I will have as my guest panelists: Dr. Terry Lease, Cal Poly Viticulture school, Professor of Wine Business, and Master of Wine Candidate, Phillip Anderson of Twisted Cedar wines, joining me for the discussion. And me. We want your questions!
Dr. Terry Lease, Cal Poly, School of Viticulture and Tricia Conover, Wine Wanderings
Phillip Anderson, Vice President Twisted Cedar Wines, MW Candidate and Tricia Conover, WW
At one of my favorite restaurants in Petaluma (shout out to Wild Goat Bistro), a half-bottle of the Rombauer Chardonnay was my go-to wine with their prosciutto and pear pizza. Always good and very dependable.
I am a novice wine taster. I can't give you much more than I like it. I think I like the fruitiness of it. I paid $33 a bottle, so a little less than the Rombauer which retails for about $40 here.
Terry and Phillip, She is not that novice! She certainly knows her Chardonnay and Sparkling brands. But I get her drift. For me, I think I like the weight of a Viognier, (so similar to a Chard), but the floral aspect of a Viognier makes me want to sniff it much longer than a Chardonnay. I love the aromatics of a Viognier.
A tasting and it can be my 5:00 Happy Hour wine, so I don't necessarily have it with food. I will say I did not like the Viogners when I tasted some other ones, so I was surprised at how much I liked this.
Last night to prep myself for today & sampled a couple of unusual wines. I had a Xarmant Txakoli & a Malbo Gentile from Venturini Baldini in Sicily. I enjoyed both. The Txakoli might appeal to Chablis drinkers. It has super high acid, some pear. some lemon, some lime pith. It would definitely pair well with seafood the way Chablis can. The grape is usually found in Spanish Cava. The Malbo was one of the darker wines you will ever see. It is soft, with some game, & earthiness. Somewhat reminiscent of a Cote du Rhone. Great bitter cherry notes as it opens. Some chocolate. The wine is still a bit rustic, but really delicious. I think that if you like lighter earthier Cabernets, this might work for you. It's another grape you usually see in sparkling wine. It's a component of Lambrusco
In an extremely broad sense I think that the best value Cabernets tend to be Chilean or Argentinian & the best value Chardonnays might be from the Macon. You get a lot of Cabernet for your money in South American Cabernets with solid depth of flavor. I think it is partially a climatic advantage & partially a cost of land advantage. The Macon is making a lot of solid Chardonnay that is still a value for what you get. This is primarily true if oak isn't a priority for you.
As VP of sales for Twisted Cedar wines I have to put in the obligatory plug for our Cabernet & Chardonnay. Good wines that both received Wine Enthusiast Best Buy status https://twistedcedarwines.com/. End of commercial!
The Chardonnay is a classic California style without being overpowering. Plenty of green & golden apple, pear, & cream. 65% aged for 10 months in a combination of French & American oak 35% in Stainless steel sur lie. It has enough acid to work with food, but should work for people who just want to sip some Chardonnay. The Cabernet Sauvignon is actually 94% Cabernet, 3% Petite Sirah, 3% Petit Verdot. I think that helps fill in the middle a bit. It has aromas of ripe berries with a trace of chocolate. Aromas mingle with flavors of cherry and balanced spice from nine months of oak-aging
Here is a thought. I have an article on Priorat coming out for you Premium members on Saturday. A really nicely extracted Garnacha/Grenache usually appeals to Cab drinkers ...much like a Chateauneuf-du-Pape
Constellation Brands did a series of studies a while back (I think the last one was in 2014) that they called Project Genome. They looked at how regular wine drinkers approached the wine purchasing experience. About 20% of wine drinkers fall into a category they call Brand Loyal--they find something they like and stick to it. So for about 1 in 5 of those pure Cab drinkers, if they order (say) Josh Cabernet, you may have a hard time getting them to order a DAOU Cabernet.
By the way, about 60% of wine drinkers overall (including the 20% who are Brand Loyal) do not want to be highly engaged in the wine purchase experience. That is a challenge for the wine industry, but the industry so far has not done much to rise to the challenge.
If someone is happy with a wine, then sure, stay with it! But being in a rut seems to imply not being happy with the status quo but not being unhappy enough to risk changing it. With so many wonderful wines available, it is sad to see someone in that state, especially when the way the industry markets the wines adding to the risk side of the equation.
As Terry mentioned, Cabernet based blends seem like a great gateway drink to the world beyond Cabernet. Outside of heavy Cab blends I think Syrah heavy blends with a bit of Cab, frequently seen in Australia might go over well. Baux de Provence now allows up to 10% Cabernet Sauvignon in its blends with Grenache, Syrah, & Mouvedre. That can be a tasty wine with enough structural similarity to Cabernet to be worth a look for Cab fans. It can pair with a steak just as well as any Cab out there.
I think it's a small step to a Bordeaux-style blend and maybe even a Super Tuscan, especially one that has a lot of Cab. If the Cab drinker likes that it's big, bold, and full-bodied, then it may be easy to convince him or her to try a similar style from Portugal, Spain, or Southern Italy. Or maybe a Syrah-dominant blend from the Central Coast.
On the other hand, if someone says they only drink Napa Cabs, then (as Phillip alluded to earlier), it may be hard to get them to drink a Bordeaux Cab (or blend)...or even a Sonoma (e.g. Alexander Valley) Cab.
It's pretty early for our West Coast friends. One alternative to think about for Chard drinkers is a sec or demi-sec Sparkling wine like Schramsberg's Cremant. It's terrific with desserts, too. How about for a sweeter breakfast for you Californian's.
Of course, the industry did show some effect from the Movie Sideways, as there were less Merlot drinkers and more Pinot Noir Drinkers. I will post a story I did 10 years after the movie.
Where I am, on California's Central Coast, the Rhône varieties are popular, so Syrah is a good alternative to Cab and numerous variations on the GSM blend. For the whites, they have a combination of Rhône varietal wines, mostly Viognier and Roussanne (with a few Grenache Blancs here and there), and blends.
I'm a huge Syrah fan. From a sales stand point it can be frustrating that Australian Shiraz is relatively easy to sell, but wine labeled Syrah can be a more difficult sale despite being the same grape. It does have structure & depth of flavor that compares well with Cabernet Sauvignon. Maybe it is because some of the best examples are less fruit forward & more about secondary characteristics (like a bacon fat taste) & they might not be as easily accessible? Maybe like Burgundy it could be because some of the best examples are named after the region & not the grape? Do you think that has an impact?
Absolutely. I remember talking to a French importer many years ago & asking him the blend of a Châteauneuf-du-Pape that he had just imported. His response was basically that it was a CDP & that's all you need to know. I think attitudes have shifted a bit. It is still a lot to expect your customers to remember the difference between a Pouilly-Fuissé & a Pouilly-Fumé. Looks pretty much the same, but completely different grapes. You shouldn't have to study or memorize appellations to drink a tasty wine!
It's probably is or could be its own discussion, but that goes a lot to how you try to sell your wines. If the two P-F wines are both in the section (whether on shelves or on the wine list) of "French wines," it will be easy for someone to be confused (or even slightly careless) and not get what they want. If you are selling them based on taste/aroma and feel, you probably will get what you want, even without a lot of study and memorizing French appellations.
Absolutely. I just think producers should make it easy on customers if possible. A good wine shop & particularly a good person working at the wine shop is your friend!
Along the same lines as a Bordeaux blend, 2 grapes that are similar to Cabernet Sauvignon that might be overlooked are Cabernet Franc (a parent of Cabernet Sauvignon) & Carménère (another prodigy of Cab Franc). Both can give you the black fruit & cocoa of Cabernet Sauvignon along with herbal notes that can be more assertive than those in Cabernet Sauvignon.
I think people tend to work their way around some of the most popular & available varietals first. So they try Merlot, Pinot Noir, Sauvignon Blanc, & Pinot Grigio even though those wines don't necessarily have huge similarities to Cab & Chard. If they are thinking about it & trying to try something similar, they might try Bordeaux blends where they get some Cabernet Sauvignon, but also additional varietals for a similar but different flavor. On the white front, someone who likes Chardonnay but wants a slight change might try an oaked Chenin Blanc from South Africa, which will be different, but still have some familiar flavors.
Probably so. It is amazing how one movie was able to boost Pinot Noir sales sales so much & depress Merlot sales. I always thought it was funny that his trophy wine in the movie was Cheval Blanc, which is a Merlot heavy wine.
I've read that the author knew that--it was very intentional. The question is whether he wanted to show that the character was not as knowledgeable as he acted or if it was to show that even Merlot could make a great wine.
In a strange way, I think it is easier to people to try something different than Chardonnay. Of course, I'm not on the Sales side of things. But Chardonnay has a disdain (the ABC movement) that does not seem to have hit Cabs.
While we don't have any paying guests to run off, I will go a little geeky--not wine geeky, just plain geeky. There is a line of decision-making research usually traced back to Kahneman and Tversky. The former won the Nobel memorial prize in Economics in 2002 for this research (the latter had passed away before then) and became more well-known to the general public when he published "Thinking, Fast and Slow." In part, the research showed that people place more value on something in the context of losing it than in the context of gaining it.
I think that often impacts the wine people order. I may not LOVE (favorite brand) Chardonnay, but I like it and know what I'm getting. If I order (wine-geek suggested wine), I may not like it and then lose the money, the enjoyment of the wine, and maybe "face" in front of my friends. Those potential losses mean more than the potential of finding a new great (even favorite) wine.
I'm back after a video call with a French wine company & an importer of French wine to Spain. So I have been talking French wine for a while. So now I'm thinking of some other white wines from France that are worth a try. Let me know which ones you suggest.
I was thinking about...
Muscadet-used to be pretty bland, but now has a little more melon to go with the cream. It can have a nice saline quality. Probably a wine for light Chardonnay fans.
Picpoul de Pinet is kind of similar, but with even higher acid & more mineral & salinity. Maybe a wine for Chablis fans.
Sémillon-I would go for the Australian style here. Aged Australian Sémillon can have great smoky flavors & taste like oak even though it doesn't necessarily see any.
Bordeaux Blanc with its blend of Sauvignon Blanc, Sémillon, & sometimes Muscadelle can be a way to get into Sauvignon Blanc without getting over the top on the green vegetal notes you see in New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc.
New question: It is our anniversary tonight and (here it comes, Tricia - the food pairing question) we are having Chilean Sea Bass and lobster tails. What wine would you recommend?
I would recommend a Chablis (lighter more acidic Chard), a Sauvignon Blanc (Fr. Sancerre) or even an Australian Gruner Veltliner or Spanish Albarino. Sea Bass is so delicate. But Lobster and Chardonnay is a perfect pairing, as it is a weightier white shell fish. Sparkling wine goes with both.
"I only drink Champagne when I'm happy, and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink it when I'm alone. When I have company, I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I am not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it - unless I'm thirsty." (Lily Bollinger)
This might be the chance to check out a Meursault! It would be great with the lobster. You can't go wrong with a Chardonnay based Champagne though. It would pair well with the food & Champagne is always good for special occasions...or not special occasions.
I jumped off too soon! Shouldn't we be suggesting alternatives to Chardonnay? I would suggest a white Rioja with a little age (and I mean a little, not R. López de Heredia Viña Tondonia, which I love!) or an Etna Bianca.
My puppy (Tokaji--yes, I named my dog after a wine) has gotten through his post-breakfast rest time and wants his morning walk. I am going to have to take a 30 - 45 minute break soon.
Have fun! By the way, for people who like the more green apple, slightly sweet & unoaked Chardonnay styles, Furmint (the grape in Tokaji) is worth a try.
I have a theory--completely untested. If someone asks for a Cab, you could pour almost any Cab (as long as it isn't actually bad). The person may like it more or may like it less, but they wouldn't say they don't like it at all. But if someone who likes stereotypical big, oaky California Chardonnay asks for a Chardonnay and you pour a Chablis, the person would say "excuse me, I asked for a Chardonnay, not this."
Exactly. I always say I like Rombauer and then ask for an oaky Chardonnay. I am trying to learn more about tasting so I can articulate what I like to the restaurant somm.
Have you tried many wines from Meursault? They can have that nutty, oaky style to them. They frequently will be fermented in barrel which gives them richness on the palate that you might like.
AND I have just joined Last Bottle, so I need to learn more to be able to ascertain which wines I might enjoy at their rock bottom prices. (Pardon it I am "off topic".)
Probably true. I know some people much prefer a big Napa style Cab though & don't necessarily want to drink a Tuscan version or a Left Bank Bordeaux that tastes more like pencil lead than big fruit.
True. But my guess is they at least kind of recognize it as Cab--or will believe you when you say it is. But I think some people have a hard time believing that a dramatically different style of Chardonnay is the same variety.
Very true. Chardonnay is still the best selling white wine, but you are right that it doesn't have the cache of some other wines. I think part of that is because the shear volume of Chardonnay in the market means that there are more bad Chardonnays than almost any other kind of wine. They great Chardonnays are worth it. I also wonder if occasional wine drinkers know that Burgundy whites are generally Chardonnay.
One of the good things about Chardonnay is that it is relatively easy to make a reasonably good Chardonnay. Phillip mentions "more bad Chardonnays" but undoubtedly means simple, uninteresting (and quite possibly not worth the money) but not technically bad. They are enjoyable, especially if you don't want to be thinking about your wine very much. It is harder to do that with Viognier.
I mostly mean uninteresting, but just by dint of volume there are probably more poorly made Chardonnays than other whites. If 1% of Viognier is poorly made, no one notices. If 1% of Chardonnay is poorly made, that's actually a lot of Chardonnay. I'm not slagging the grape as a whole though.
I think that the oaked versions, particularly from Condrieu would be a good way to branch out & then maybe as you go you try less oaked versions that are more floral. Other than the lower acid I think it can sometimes be hard to differentiate a heavily oaked Viognier from an oaked Chardonnay. Of course what I love about Viognier is the floral smell & the almost sweet/almost bitter finish they can have.
I think Phillip mentioned Chenin Blanc earlier. That is also a good alternative to Chardonnay...if you get it in the right style and not one that is more on the sweet (off-dry) side.
One of my favorite chards is Rombauer. I recently tasted and really like Penner-Ash Viognier from Oregon.
Hi Linda from Texas. What did you think of the Viongier? Rombauer has a certain "house style." Well made and distinct.
At one of my favorite restaurants in Petaluma (shout out to Wild Goat Bistro), a half-bottle of the Rombauer Chardonnay was my go-to wine with their prosciutto and pear pizza. Always good and very dependable.
I'm always pleasantly surprised when I have a glass of Rombauer Sauvignon Blanc.
I need to try the Penner-Ash Viognier again. It has been years. I seem to recall liking it. How would you describe it?
I am a novice wine taster. I can't give you much more than I like it. I think I like the fruitiness of it. I paid $33 a bottle, so a little less than the Rombauer which retails for about $40 here.
Terry and Phillip, She is not that novice! She certainly knows her Chardonnay and Sparkling brands. But I get her drift. For me, I think I like the weight of a Viognier, (so similar to a Chard), but the floral aspect of a Viognier makes me want to sniff it much longer than a Chardonnay. I love the aromatics of a Viognier.
I will have to check it out again soon.
Linda, did you have the Penner-Ash Viognier with a meal, or were you enjoying the wine on its own (or as part of a tasting)?
A tasting and it can be my 5:00 Happy Hour wine, so I don't necessarily have it with food. I will say I did not like the Viogners when I tasted some other ones, so I was surprised at how much I liked this.
Last night to prep myself for today & sampled a couple of unusual wines. I had a Xarmant Txakoli & a Malbo Gentile from Venturini Baldini in Sicily. I enjoyed both. The Txakoli might appeal to Chablis drinkers. It has super high acid, some pear. some lemon, some lime pith. It would definitely pair well with seafood the way Chablis can. The grape is usually found in Spanish Cava. The Malbo was one of the darker wines you will ever see. It is soft, with some game, & earthiness. Somewhat reminiscent of a Cote du Rhone. Great bitter cherry notes as it opens. Some chocolate. The wine is still a bit rustic, but really delicious. I think that if you like lighter earthier Cabernets, this might work for you. It's another grape you usually see in sparkling wine. It's a component of Lambrusco
Let's talk about Best Value Cabs and Chardonnays, if you are determined to stick with your favorite varietals
In an extremely broad sense I think that the best value Cabernets tend to be Chilean or Argentinian & the best value Chardonnays might be from the Macon. You get a lot of Cabernet for your money in South American Cabernets with solid depth of flavor. I think it is partially a climatic advantage & partially a cost of land advantage. The Macon is making a lot of solid Chardonnay that is still a value for what you get. This is primarily true if oak isn't a priority for you.
As VP of sales for Twisted Cedar wines I have to put in the obligatory plug for our Cabernet & Chardonnay. Good wines that both received Wine Enthusiast Best Buy status https://twistedcedarwines.com/. End of commercial!
I want to try them all! Thanks, Phillip
Phillip, I understand you may have a Wine Club soon. What is the status?
We should be rolling it out next month. Anyone who signs up on our mailing list will get an invite when it is ready to go.
Tell me about your Chard and Cab.
The Chardonnay is a classic California style without being overpowering. Plenty of green & golden apple, pear, & cream. 65% aged for 10 months in a combination of French & American oak 35% in Stainless steel sur lie. It has enough acid to work with food, but should work for people who just want to sip some Chardonnay. The Cabernet Sauvignon is actually 94% Cabernet, 3% Petite Sirah, 3% Petit Verdot. I think that helps fill in the middle a bit. It has aromas of ripe berries with a trace of chocolate. Aromas mingle with flavors of cherry and balanced spice from nine months of oak-aging
Phillip. Sounds lovely. What is the average retail? We may need to get some to our previous commenter, Linda!
$15 or less.
That is a great value.
Here is a thought. I have an article on Priorat coming out for you Premium members on Saturday. A really nicely extracted Garnacha/Grenache usually appeals to Cab drinkers ...much like a Chateauneuf-du-Pape
New Topic: How hard is it to convince a pure Cab drinker to try a Blend?
Constellation Brands did a series of studies a while back (I think the last one was in 2014) that they called Project Genome. They looked at how regular wine drinkers approached the wine purchasing experience. About 20% of wine drinkers fall into a category they call Brand Loyal--they find something they like and stick to it. So for about 1 in 5 of those pure Cab drinkers, if they order (say) Josh Cabernet, you may have a hard time getting them to order a DAOU Cabernet.
Thus the topic. Are you in a rut? But, if they are happy with it. So be it. Consumers certainly vote with their dollars.
By the way, about 60% of wine drinkers overall (including the 20% who are Brand Loyal) do not want to be highly engaged in the wine purchase experience. That is a challenge for the wine industry, but the industry so far has not done much to rise to the challenge.
If someone is happy with a wine, then sure, stay with it! But being in a rut seems to imply not being happy with the status quo but not being unhappy enough to risk changing it. With so many wonderful wines available, it is sad to see someone in that state, especially when the way the industry markets the wines adding to the risk side of the equation.
As Terry mentioned, Cabernet based blends seem like a great gateway drink to the world beyond Cabernet. Outside of heavy Cab blends I think Syrah heavy blends with a bit of Cab, frequently seen in Australia might go over well. Baux de Provence now allows up to 10% Cabernet Sauvignon in its blends with Grenache, Syrah, & Mouvedre. That can be a tasty wine with enough structural similarity to Cabernet to be worth a look for Cab fans. It can pair with a steak just as well as any Cab out there.
I think it's a small step to a Bordeaux-style blend and maybe even a Super Tuscan, especially one that has a lot of Cab. If the Cab drinker likes that it's big, bold, and full-bodied, then it may be easy to convince him or her to try a similar style from Portugal, Spain, or Southern Italy. Or maybe a Syrah-dominant blend from the Central Coast.
Or even simply a cab merlot blend from Washington State. Love Super Tuscans though. Great suggestion. The Dry reds from Portugal can be wonderful.
On the other hand, if someone says they only drink Napa Cabs, then (as Phillip alluded to earlier), it may be hard to get them to drink a Bordeaux Cab (or blend)...or even a Sonoma (e.g. Alexander Valley) Cab.
Yes, they are Big Cabs. Perhaps except maybe a few like Cathy Corison's.
Does it good a high score from Robert Parker? Just kidding...maybe.
Bordeaux Blanc or White Bordeaux is a great suggestion for a Chardonnay drinker. Much more mouthfeel than a Sauvignon Blanc. More weight.
Join us again soon. I'd like to propose the popularity of Red Blends to Cab Drinkers next.
It's pretty early for our West Coast friends. One alternative to think about for Chard drinkers is a sec or demi-sec Sparkling wine like Schramsberg's Cremant. It's terrific with desserts, too. How about for a sweeter breakfast for you Californian's.
Of course, the industry did show some effect from the Movie Sideways, as there were less Merlot drinkers and more Pinot Noir Drinkers. I will post a story I did 10 years after the movie.
Good morning to you both. Thanks for your perspective, Phillip. Terry, What are your suggestions?
Phillip and Terry (Dr. Lease). What wines do you see wine drinkers go to if they normally drink Cab and Chardonnay?
Where I am, on California's Central Coast, the Rhône varieties are popular, so Syrah is a good alternative to Cab and numerous variations on the GSM blend. For the whites, they have a combination of Rhône varietal wines, mostly Viognier and Roussanne (with a few Grenache Blancs here and there), and blends.
I'm a huge Syrah fan. From a sales stand point it can be frustrating that Australian Shiraz is relatively easy to sell, but wine labeled Syrah can be a more difficult sale despite being the same grape. It does have structure & depth of flavor that compares well with Cabernet Sauvignon. Maybe it is because some of the best examples are less fruit forward & more about secondary characteristics (like a bacon fat taste) & they might not be as easily accessible? Maybe like Burgundy it could be because some of the best examples are named after the region & not the grape? Do you think that has an impact?
I do think the old world "Place Naming" sometimes confuses wine drinkers who are used to USA and Australia calling it by the Grape Names.
Absolutely. I remember talking to a French importer many years ago & asking him the blend of a Châteauneuf-du-Pape that he had just imported. His response was basically that it was a CDP & that's all you need to know. I think attitudes have shifted a bit. It is still a lot to expect your customers to remember the difference between a Pouilly-Fuissé & a Pouilly-Fumé. Looks pretty much the same, but completely different grapes. You shouldn't have to study or memorize appellations to drink a tasty wine!
It's probably is or could be its own discussion, but that goes a lot to how you try to sell your wines. If the two P-F wines are both in the section (whether on shelves or on the wine list) of "French wines," it will be easy for someone to be confused (or even slightly careless) and not get what they want. If you are selling them based on taste/aroma and feel, you probably will get what you want, even without a lot of study and memorizing French appellations.
Absolutely. I just think producers should make it easy on customers if possible. A good wine shop & particularly a good person working at the wine shop is your friend!
Along the same lines as a Bordeaux blend, 2 grapes that are similar to Cabernet Sauvignon that might be overlooked are Cabernet Franc (a parent of Cabernet Sauvignon) & Carménère (another prodigy of Cab Franc). Both can give you the black fruit & cocoa of Cabernet Sauvignon along with herbal notes that can be more assertive than those in Cabernet Sauvignon.
I think people tend to work their way around some of the most popular & available varietals first. So they try Merlot, Pinot Noir, Sauvignon Blanc, & Pinot Grigio even though those wines don't necessarily have huge similarities to Cab & Chard. If they are thinking about it & trying to try something similar, they might try Bordeaux blends where they get some Cabernet Sauvignon, but also additional varietals for a similar but different flavor. On the white front, someone who likes Chardonnay but wants a slight change might try an oaked Chenin Blanc from South Africa, which will be different, but still have some familiar flavors.
Phillip, do you think that the so-called Sideways Effect still keeps people away from Merlot, all these years later?
I wish I could post a picture of the "Spittoon" scene from "Sideways."
Probably so. It is amazing how one movie was able to boost Pinot Noir sales sales so much & depress Merlot sales. I always thought it was funny that his trophy wine in the movie was Cheval Blanc, which is a Merlot heavy wine.
Ironic
I've read that the author knew that--it was very intentional. The question is whether he wanted to show that the character was not as knowledgeable as he acted or if it was to show that even Merlot could make a great wine.
Cool either way
In a strange way, I think it is easier to people to try something different than Chardonnay. Of course, I'm not on the Sales side of things. But Chardonnay has a disdain (the ABC movement) that does not seem to have hit Cabs.
I think you are right. But I know several gentlemen when asked what wine they want to drink, simply say "Call me a Cab."
Join us at 9 AM Thursday. Asking you: are you in a wine rut?
While we don't have any paying guests to run off, I will go a little geeky--not wine geeky, just plain geeky. There is a line of decision-making research usually traced back to Kahneman and Tversky. The former won the Nobel memorial prize in Economics in 2002 for this research (the latter had passed away before then) and became more well-known to the general public when he published "Thinking, Fast and Slow." In part, the research showed that people place more value on something in the context of losing it than in the context of gaining it.
I think that often impacts the wine people order. I may not LOVE (favorite brand) Chardonnay, but I like it and know what I'm getting. If I order (wine-geek suggested wine), I may not like it and then lose the money, the enjoyment of the wine, and maybe "face" in front of my friends. Those potential losses mean more than the potential of finding a new great (even favorite) wine.
I am back from Zoom now. You guys really have some good suggestions. Bending Branch ages their Picpoul in a bourbon barrel (Maybe Pappy Van Winkle)
I'm back after a video call with a French wine company & an importer of French wine to Spain. So I have been talking French wine for a while. So now I'm thinking of some other white wines from France that are worth a try. Let me know which ones you suggest.
I was thinking about...
Muscadet-used to be pretty bland, but now has a little more melon to go with the cream. It can have a nice saline quality. Probably a wine for light Chardonnay fans.
Picpoul de Pinet is kind of similar, but with even higher acid & more mineral & salinity. Maybe a wine for Chablis fans.
Sémillon-I would go for the Australian style here. Aged Australian Sémillon can have great smoky flavors & taste like oak even though it doesn't necessarily see any.
Bordeaux Blanc with its blend of Sauvignon Blanc, Sémillon, & sometimes Muscadelle can be a way to get into Sauvignon Blanc without getting over the top on the green vegetal notes you see in New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc.
Good choices! We talked about Viognier, but we shouldn't overlook the other white Rhone varieties (and blends) as well.
I'm a fan of Rhone whites, particularly Marsanne, Roussanne blends. There is a waxy texture to them that some people might not like, but I like it.
I think of those (if done reasonably well) as being good alternatives to a full-bodied Chardonnay.
Definitely!
New question: It is our anniversary tonight and (here it comes, Tricia - the food pairing question) we are having Chilean Sea Bass and lobster tails. What wine would you recommend?
I would recommend a Chablis (lighter more acidic Chard), a Sauvignon Blanc (Fr. Sancerre) or even an Australian Gruner Veltliner or Spanish Albarino. Sea Bass is so delicate. But Lobster and Chardonnay is a perfect pairing, as it is a weightier white shell fish. Sparkling wine goes with both.
Perfect! I have a bottle of champagne chilling. It's a rose', but I have a white wine champagne also...
"I only drink Champagne when I'm happy, and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink it when I'm alone. When I have company, I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I am not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it - unless I'm thirsty." (Lily Bollinger)
“Champagne! In victory one deserves it, in defeat one needs it.” Napoleon Bonaparte.
Two of my favorite sayings. Thank you!
I could do a yellow table Veuve Cliquot
Perfect! Champagne and Lobster - the brininess/saltiness is a good match for a brut Champagne.
Sounds good. It is going in the fridge as we speak!
*yellow LABEL....haha
This might be the chance to check out a Meursault! It would be great with the lobster. You can't go wrong with a Chardonnay based Champagne though. It would pair well with the food & Champagne is always good for special occasions...or not special occasions.
I jumped off too soon! Shouldn't we be suggesting alternatives to Chardonnay? I would suggest a white Rioja with a little age (and I mean a little, not R. López de Heredia Viña Tondonia, which I love!) or an Etna Bianca.
I LOVE White Rioja (Viura grape mostly). One of my all time favorites.
I have a quick call with a French producer & might be out for a bit.
My puppy (Tokaji--yes, I named my dog after a wine) has gotten through his post-breakfast rest time and wants his morning walk. I am going to have to take a 30 - 45 minute break soon.
Have fun! By the way, for people who like the more green apple, slightly sweet & unoaked Chardonnay styles, Furmint (the grape in Tokaji) is worth a try.
I have a theory--completely untested. If someone asks for a Cab, you could pour almost any Cab (as long as it isn't actually bad). The person may like it more or may like it less, but they wouldn't say they don't like it at all. But if someone who likes stereotypical big, oaky California Chardonnay asks for a Chardonnay and you pour a Chablis, the person would say "excuse me, I asked for a Chardonnay, not this."
I think, like Linda, they really know their Chardonnays.
Exactly. I always say I like Rombauer and then ask for an oaky Chardonnay. I am trying to learn more about tasting so I can articulate what I like to the restaurant somm.
Have you tried many wines from Meursault? They can have that nutty, oaky style to them. They frequently will be fermented in barrel which gives them richness on the palate that you might like.
No I haven't and thanks for the suggestion.
AND I have just joined Last Bottle, so I need to learn more to be able to ascertain which wines I might enjoy at their rock bottom prices. (Pardon it I am "off topic".)
Not off topic. I have become a little addicted to Last Bottle. Great deals.
Google is your friend there! It is so much easier now to look up a wine & find out how it should taste than it used to be!
* IF I am off topic.
Probably true. I know some people much prefer a big Napa style Cab though & don't necessarily want to drink a Tuscan version or a Left Bank Bordeaux that tastes more like pencil lead than big fruit.
True. But my guess is they at least kind of recognize it as Cab--or will believe you when you say it is. But I think some people have a hard time believing that a dramatically different style of Chardonnay is the same variety.
Good morning!
Up & talking wine early!
Very true. Chardonnay is still the best selling white wine, but you are right that it doesn't have the cache of some other wines. I think part of that is because the shear volume of Chardonnay in the market means that there are more bad Chardonnays than almost any other kind of wine. They great Chardonnays are worth it. I also wonder if occasional wine drinkers know that Burgundy whites are generally Chardonnay.
What do you think about Viognier as a choice for Chardonnay drinkers?
One of the good things about Chardonnay is that it is relatively easy to make a reasonably good Chardonnay. Phillip mentions "more bad Chardonnays" but undoubtedly means simple, uninteresting (and quite possibly not worth the money) but not technically bad. They are enjoyable, especially if you don't want to be thinking about your wine very much. It is harder to do that with Viognier.
I mostly mean uninteresting, but just by dint of volume there are probably more poorly made Chardonnays than other whites. If 1% of Viognier is poorly made, no one notices. If 1% of Chardonnay is poorly made, that's actually a lot of Chardonnay. I'm not slagging the grape as a whole though.
I think that the oaked versions, particularly from Condrieu would be a good way to branch out & then maybe as you go you try less oaked versions that are more floral. Other than the lower acid I think it can sometimes be hard to differentiate a heavily oaked Viognier from an oaked Chardonnay. Of course what I love about Viognier is the floral smell & the almost sweet/almost bitter finish they can have.
I think Phillip mentioned Chenin Blanc earlier. That is also a good alternative to Chardonnay...if you get it in the right style and not one that is more on the sweet (off-dry) side.
I'm 100% on board with Chenin Blanc dry or sweet. I wrote up a thing a few years back on why Chenin should be the answer to your ABC question. https://realmendrinkrose.net/2015/06/18/why-chenin-blanc-should-be-the-answer-to-your-abc-problem/. Savennières is probably my favorite, but the sweeter styles with botrytis can be amazing.
Not to be dull, but what is botrytis? Ignore the question if you need an undergrad degree in botany or chemistry to answer.